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  #51  
Old 12-12-2019, 10:01 PM
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You're extremely condescending when both when speaking to us here on this board, as well as when speaking about players in a sport you supposedly like (or at least I'd assume so since you have posted 4000+ times.) If the "world of college athletics" is such a cesspool and nobody at Alabama/Clemson/OSU could ever even pretend to be a ND student why do you watch? If ND is handicapping themselves to the extent you believe then what is truly the point? Do you believe Alums, fans and the team should pat themselves on the back and say "WELL AT LEAST WE GO TO SCHOOL!" while ignoring ND has vacated wins due to academic impropriety within the last 10 years, had more arrests than the previous coaches and had a student manager die due to negligence? Now I'm not blaming Kelly/The University for any of those things, but it's hard to hold the moral high ground with the decade ND has had.

I'd also like you to tell me exactly what the "constraints" are that ND is under compared to other schools. You can't just say "WELL OUR KIDS GO TO SCHOOL" while ignoring Clemson has a 75% graduation rate, or ignoring the fact that ND has offered over half of the top 30 players per 247. ND players need a slightly higher GPA/test scores out of high school, but it's most certainly not as high as you seem to think it is. The great players don't want to come because they want to win championships and be prepared for their future job in the NFL, and the schools that are beating ND are better at those things.
ND offered 20 5* players of the 33 5* players from the 2020 class per rivals.
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  #52  
Old 12-12-2019, 11:43 PM
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And he got smoked in BCS bowls too. The fact is we played two quality opponents this year and lost to both. We deserve an average bowl, albeit maybe something like the Gator or Citrus.

Kelly has gotten us to one national and one playoff. Weis’ two BCS games can’t hold a candle to that. If you don’t think Kelly has elevated the program from Weis’ time then you are living in some fantasy land.
Yeah, but you ignored the schedule disparity. Kelly would have gotten crushed by both Pete Caroll teams that Weis lost to, along with that 2006 Michigan team which ended up a #8 team. Kelly would have fared no better against that LSU, or OSU in the bowls than he did getting smoked by Alabama and Clemson. I'll give you the Georgia loss, but Kelly has proven so many times that he's no more a match than Weis when it comes to elite teams, and I'd take Weis's near loss vs. USC in 2005 over Kelly's loss to Georgia this year any day of the week. We were one play away from beating USC in 2005 vs the eventual #2 team that lost an epic NC game. We were never that close to Georgia this year and they are no where as good comparatively as that USC team.
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  #53  
Old 12-12-2019, 11:47 PM
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Yeah, but you ignored the schedule disparity. Kelly would have gotten crushed by both Pete Caroll teams that Weis lost to, along with that 2006 Michigan team which ended up a #8 team. Kelly would have fared no better against that LSU, or OSU in the bowls than he did getting smoked by Alabama and Clemson. I'll give you the Georgia loss, but Kelly has proven so many times that he's no more a match than Weis when it comes to elite teams, and I'd take Weis's near loss vs. USC in 2005 over Kelly's loss to Georgia this year any day of the week. We were one play away from beating USC in 2005 vs the eventual #2 team that lost an epic NC game. We were never that close to Georgia this year and they are no where as good comparatively as that USC team.
This might be one of the dumbest conversations Iíve had on this forum. Weis followed his bad season with two 6 win seasons. Kelly went 10-3,12-1 and 10-2. I donít care who he played, itís tough winning that many games with college kids.

Just like Weis would have lost to the Harbaugh team last year? Or the USC team in 2017? Your arguing Weis losses whereas Iím arguing for Kellyís wins... do you see the problem here?
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  #54  
Old 12-13-2019, 12:07 AM
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If my aunt had balls sheíd be my uncle...
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  #55  
Old 12-13-2019, 12:40 AM
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This might be one of the dumbest conversations Iíve had on this forum. Weis followed his bad season with two 6 win seasons. Kelly went 10-3,12-1 and 10-2. I donít care who he played, itís tough winning that many games with college kids.

Just like Weis would have lost to the Harbaugh team last year? Or the USC team in 2017? Your arguing Weis losses whereas Iím arguing for Kellyís wins... do you see the problem here?
Weis was the last coach to beat Michigan at Michigan. Iím just saying...
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  #56  
Old 12-13-2019, 02:08 AM
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Weis was the last coach to beat Michigan at Michigan. Iím just saying...
Yeah Iím really missing the days of losing to Syracuse and Uconn on senior day...

Do you remember when Uconn used the same running play to the left 6 or 7 times while they just manhandled our defensive line? Lol has to be one of the low points of ND football.
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  #57  
Old 12-13-2019, 03:54 AM
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Yeah Iím really missing the days of losing to Syracuse and Uconn on senior day...

Do you remember when Uconn used the same running play to the left 6 or 7 times while they just manhandled our defensive line? Lol has to be one of the low points of ND football.
We can thank Ty Willingham for a lot of that... It makes me sick seeing that a$$hole part of the selection committee or anything else football... what a waste.
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  #58  
Old 12-13-2019, 09:38 AM
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Way to much melodrama in this long thread , not really great bedtime reading .

If it is true that some of us are stuck in the past

Its also true that some of us are stuck less far back in the weis Willingham era

We were just in the playoffs last freakin year..we have had TWO undefeated regular seasons and were in the title game in 2012

Football is alive and well at ND IMHO

Sure its hard to win everything and beat those handful of teams that grab so many 5 stars.... but we have been in the position to win it all twice in the last 7 years,,,,,

We have a good chance at winning 11 games this season

If you watch the NFl you see Nd players ALL OVER THE PLACE,,, just saw boynkin catch a nice Td pass from lamar J this evening

I mean YES we could use a couple extra 5 stars a year
We could use a GREAT QB

But we have fielded some really good offenses and defenses lately and it just seems that all the moaning and despair that percolates through this thread is just not a completely realistic take on the current state of Nd football. just my opinion

aloha
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  #59  
Old 12-13-2019, 01:43 PM
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Yeah Iím really missing the days of losing to Syracuse and Uconn on senior day...

Do you remember when Uconn used the same running play to the left 6 or 7 times while they just manhandled our defensive line? Lol has to be one of the low points of ND football.
I thought the loss to Tulsa was the low point of ND football...Either way, the point was Kelly needs to win a top 10 game from now on. If not, the committee wonít be letting us in over any conference champion soon. We canít keep living on ďclose lossesĒ and beating teams that are ranked 20-25 as our way in.
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  #60  
Old 12-13-2019, 01:49 PM
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Can you imagine Holtz having an offensive game plan like Kelly's NC State or this year's Michigan one? Can you imagine a Holtz offense where his offensive linemen continually jump offside and it doesn't get any better? Can you imagine, even against this crap schedule, being ranked 47th in Punt Returns and 105th in kickoff returns. Holtz would kick the crap out of Kelly if they both had the same players. It would be like ND-FSU 1993. The difference between finesse and power.
bingo! Holtz is/was a total badass. Kelly is the polar opposite.

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  #61  
Old 12-13-2019, 02:10 PM
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I thought the loss to Tulsa was the low point of ND football...Either way, the point was Kelly needs to win a top 10 game from now on. If not, the committee wonít be letting us in over any conference champion soon. We canít keep living on ďclose lossesĒ and beating teams that are ranked 20-25 as our way in.
Your counting the Michigan road game in 05 as a top ten win? Lol you do know they finished 7-5?

MSU in 13 had 1 loss and finished number 2 or 3, OU in 12, last year Cuse and Michigan were just outside the top ten, same with USC in 17.

Thereís some questionable arguments here but arguing Weis against BK is just idiotic and Iím not a BK fan.
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  #62  
Old 12-13-2019, 02:39 PM
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This might be one of the dumbest conversations I’ve had on this forum. Weis followed his bad season with two 6 win seasons. Kelly went 10-3,12-1 and 10-2. I don’t care who he played, it’s tough winning that many games with college kids.

Just like Weis would have lost to the Harbaugh team last year? Or the USC team in 2017? Your arguing Weis losses whereas I’m arguing for Kelly’s wins... do you see the problem here?
I understand that Kelly has had three good years, after going 4-8 in 2016. However, your original statement was, " look at where we were from 2000-2010 to where we are now." I'm just pointing out a period in that time frame where I do not see that we're better today. The schedule is much weaker today and USC is way down, which is masking our weaknesses and stoking your enthusiasm. The college football world knows we're not that good, which is why we're ranked #15 and playing a 5 loss team- as a 3.5 point favorite- in a lower tier bowl.
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  #63  
Old 12-13-2019, 02:41 PM
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I thought the loss to Tulsa was the low point of ND football...Either way, the point was Kelly needs to win a top 10 game from now on. If not, the committee won’t be letting us in over any conference champion soon. We can’t keep living on “close losses” and beating teams that are ranked 20-25 as our way in.
It's as if that 31 point loss to Michigan never happened this year to some people on this board.
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  #64  
Old 12-13-2019, 02:58 PM
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It's as if that 31 point loss to Michigan never happened this year to some people on this board.
Yep. Swept under the rug along with the 30 plus beat down by Miami, the blowout losses to Clemson, Ohio State, ASU and so on. But because we cleaned up those UCF/ Tulsa type losses we are some how supposed to be amazed.
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  #65  
Old 12-13-2019, 03:08 PM
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Your counting the Michigan road game in 05 as a top ten win? Lol you do know they finished 7-5?

MSU in 13 had 1 loss and finished number 2 or 3, OU in 12, last year Cuse and Michigan were just outside the top ten, same with USC in 17.

Thereís some questionable arguments here but arguing Weis against BK is just idiotic and Iím not a BK fan.
Iím not. Iím pointing out that Weis was simply able to beat Michigan at their house. Something Kelly will never do.
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  #66  
Old 12-13-2019, 04:44 PM
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Yep. Swept under the rug along with the 30 plus beat down by Miami, the blowout losses to Clemson, Ohio State, ASU and so on. But because we cleaned up those UCF/ Tulsa type losses we are some how supposed to be amazed.
Iíve been as critical as anyone on these losses. Iím simply acknowledging he has built the program up from the mess of Weis. Now we just need someone to help us take that next step.
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  #67  
Old 12-13-2019, 05:42 PM
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It's as if that 31 point loss to Michigan never happened this year to some people on this board.
Low point of Notre Dame football isn't this year's loss to Michigan.

Not that it wasn't awful, but I'll see your 2019 Michigan game and raise you a 2003 home loss to Florida State with a score of 37-0.

Or a Charlie Weis 2007 loss to Navy, breaking a 43 year streak.
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  #68  
Old 12-13-2019, 06:41 PM
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For my money the entire run post '93 season has been the low point for ND football. This counts for all aspects and decisions surrounding the program. There have been too many errors made by the PTB in the stewardship of its most recognized and celebrated asset. Some would argue that there have been darker periods in the programs history, however those were rectified with the right hires and proper management in short order.

We are still struggling through a comedy of blunders set in motion before Lou left, that has yet to be properly corrected. I very strongly disagree with the excuses that ND can't compete and that CFB has passed us by, that we are now relegated to the scrapheap of history. We hold ourselves back by refusing to be creative, innovative and God forbid actually go out and work our asses off to become the best while not taking no or you can't for an answer. **** that! I see too much contentment from what used to be and resting on our laurels rather than making something happen and forcing the issue. Disneyfication took over. Guess what Disney sucks! Like ND, they took all the things that used to be really ****ing great and unique and turned them into crap to appeal to a broad audience, family friendly, we do it right bullshit. ND lost its balls and character a long time ago with regard to the football program and many would argue the university as a whole as well.
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  #69  
Old 12-13-2019, 07:24 PM
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Low point of Notre Dame football isn't this year's loss to Michigan.

Not that it wasn't awful, but I'll see your 2019 Michigan game and raise you a 2003 home loss to Florida State with a score of 37-0.

Or a Charlie Weis 2007 loss to Navy, breaking a 43 year streak.
I agree with you that, at the time, Weis's loss to Navy was the low point, and probably still is given how he didn't rebound when Clausen was a senior (the Syracus loss also being a low point), but Kelly has lost to Navy twice as well. My only point about Weis, which I think is valid, is that his 2005/2006 teams were as good, or very close to being on par, with these last two Kelly teams. Can you imagine a Kelly team playing a current team with talent relative to that 2005 USC team, with Pete Carroll as their coach, down to the last snap? To me, that's the highlight game of the post Holtz era and Kelly hasn't had a win, or close loss, comparable to that.
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Old 12-13-2019, 08:31 PM
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I agree with you that, at the time, Weis's loss to Navy was the low point, and probably still is given how he didn't rebound when Clausen was a senior (the Syracus loss also being a low point), but Kelly has lost to Navy twice as well. My only point about Weis, which I think is valid, is that his 2005/2006 teams were as good, or very close to being on par, with these last two Kelly teams. Can you imagine a Kelly team playing a current team with talent relative to that 2005 USC team, with Pete Carroll as their coach, down to the last snap? To me, that's the highlight game of the post Holtz era and Kelly hasn't had a win, or close loss, comparable to that.
I agree with this. Kelly is a better coach than Weis. Nobody here is arguing otherwise. But Weis was also competing against nearly perfect USC teams, and Michigan teams coached by Lloyd Carr instead of 5 years of Rich Rod and Brady Hoke.

We also forget the after the 2005 season, Weis was all about how "9-3 isn't good enough!" Now 9-3 turned out to be his peak, but he knew it wasn't good enough while Swarbrick and Kelly seemingly want a parade for winning 10 games against a mediocre schedule.
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  #71  
Old 12-13-2019, 09:08 PM
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Way to much melodrama in this long thread , not really great bedtime reading .

If it is true that some of us are stuck in the past

Its also true that some of us are stuck less far back in the weis Willingham era

We were just in the playoffs last freakin year..we have had TWO undefeated regular seasons and were in the title game in 2012

Football is alive and well at ND IMHO

Sure its hard to win everything and beat those handful of teams that grab so many 5 stars.... but we have been in the position to win it all twice in the last 7 years,,,,,

We have a good chance at winning 11 games this season

If you watch the NFl you see Nd players ALL OVER THE PLACE,,, just saw boynkin catch a nice Td pass from lamar J this evening

I mean YES we could use a couple extra 5 stars a year
We could use a GREAT QB

But we have fielded some really good offenses and defenses lately and it just seems that all the moaning and despair that percolates through this thread is just not a completely realistic take on the current state of Nd football. just my opinion

aloha
Amen to that Hawaii.
And to all the nattering nabobs of negativity on this site: Bah Humbug!
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  #72  
Old 12-13-2019, 09:34 PM
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I agree with you that, at the time, Weis's loss to Navy was the low point, and probably still is given how he didn't rebound when Clausen was a senior (the Syracus loss also being a low point), but Kelly has lost to Navy twice as well. My only point about Weis, which I think is valid, is that his 2005/2006 teams were as good, or very close to being on par, with these last two Kelly teams. Can you imagine a Kelly team playing a current team with talent relative to that 2005 USC team, with Pete Carroll as their coach, down to the last snap? To me, that's the highlight game of the post Holtz era and Kelly hasn't had a win, or close loss, comparable to that.
Your giving Weis credit for a team that he inherited. A big part of being a college coach is recruiting, his teams with all his guys went 6-6. These teams don’t hold a candle to 2015, 2017, 2018 and 2019. The 14 team while not great would steamroll those Weis teams.

I also don’t get how your still arguing for a loss. Kelly’s has some really close losses and some descent to very good wins. Weis got steamrolled at home in 06 , what was Kelly’s worst home loss? 13 vs OU with Rees at qb (35-21).

The 05 team was not as good as the 12, 15, 17 and 18 teams. The 05 team had a pedestrian defense and no depth. Sure the offence was good but that unit lacked depth as well. They lost to a 5 win team and only beat two teams with a winning record, one being Navy.
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  #73  
Old 12-13-2019, 10:40 PM
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bingo! Holtz is/was a total badass. Kelly is the polar opposite.

all hail Elder06 the comedian!
He was a great coach, but he wouldnít be successful in todayís game. Again, look at how he fared at South Carolina.
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  #74  
Old 12-13-2019, 11:06 PM
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He was a great coach, but he wouldnít be successful in todayís game. Again, look at how he fared at South Carolina.
If Lou were younger and had time to digest and understand the spread, he would be very successful. Sure the systems he employed in his career have become dated to an extent, but look at how the spread principles Meyer and others employed were based on schemes from an earlier day. Lou had "it" when it came to coaching. He worked hard, surrounded himself with really good staffs, demanded perfection, and more often than not made it happen consistently on the field against top competition.

How much did Lou really have in the tank at SCar? And that is not an easy job to succeed at historically. He had some good seasons there, no championships but I don't believe Spurrier had any either.
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  #75  
Old 12-13-2019, 11:55 PM
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He was a great coach, but he wouldnít be successful in todayís game. Again, look at how he fared at South Carolina.
Apparently you skimmed over my post disagreeing with this.
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