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  #51  
Old 01-09-2020, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ELDER06 View Post
Yeah, so elite he couldnít beat out an avg Ian Book.
Like how Joe Montana couldnít beat out the guys in front of him until they were injured?
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  #52  
Old 01-09-2020, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown_9999 View Post
If recruiting / developing a high performing QB is a requirement to win a NC, then a head coach who has only sent one QB to the NFL in 10 years at the same school does not seem likely to win one.

Both Saban and Meyer have done better than 1 in a decade.

Also, Kelly was supposed to be an offensive guru / QB whisperer when he started at ND.

Saban's QBs

Tua Tagovailoa, Probable first round pick
Jalen Hurts, Probable 1st to 3rd round pick
A. J. McCarron, 6 years in NFL
John Parker Wilson, 3 years in NFL
Greg McElroy, 3 years in NFL
Blake Sims, 1+ year in NFL

Meyer's QBs

Josh Harris, Bowling Green, Pro career: Harris was drafted in the sixth round by Baltimore in 2004 and knocked around the NFL and CFL for three seasons.
Alex Smith, Utah, Pro career: Smith was selected first overall in 2005 by the San Francisco 49ers also five year starter for KC
Chris Leak, Florida, Pro career: Signed as an undrafted free agent in 2007 by the Chicago Bears
Tim Tebow, Florida, Pro career: Tebow was drafted in the first round by Denver in 2010. 3 years in NFL
Braxton Miller, Ohio State, Pro career: Miller was selected in the third round by Houston in 2016. Spent 4 years in the NFL as WR
Cardale Jones, Ohio State, Pro career: Jones was drafted in the fourth round by Buffalo in 2016 and spent 4 years in NFL
J. T. Barrett: First Team All-Big Ten in 2014, 2016 and 2017. A couple of seasons on practice squads of three different NFl teams
Out of this list only Alex Smith has had a decent NFL career. You are missing the point, these are considered the top coaches, the very top and yet have not produced an elite qb in the nfl yet.. we shall see about Tua. I hate that you make it so easy to defend Kelly, when I donít think he is even close to the level of these coaches.
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  #53  
Old 01-09-2020, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Dardo View Post
Like how Joe Montana couldnít beat out the guys in front of him until they were injured?
From Andrew Hendrix to Joe Montana...this thread has been great.
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  #54  
Old 01-09-2020, 04:37 PM
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I agree. I think we need to Get use to this. I think this will become the norm now to transfer if you donít start after two years. I wish him well.
Itís already the norm if youíre a 4/5* QB. I feel confident that Pyne or Buchner will end up in the transfer portal in a few yrs. The question is will coaches still take high * QB recruits in back to back yrs knowing one of them leaving is likely, or will they bet on one high * QB and take a 2/3* as a backup?
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Old 01-09-2020, 04:40 PM
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I know BK has had absolutely zero successful college QBs come out of ND in just over a decade. Youd think that would be enough for guys with elite talent to steer clear...I've no doubt that that fact is brought up by coaches competing for a pledge during the recruiting process...

But yes, it's prob not at all tied to BK. Just bad luck. Lol
Iíd say itís more of an indictment on who he recruits. How did Kiel, Zaire, Golson, and Wimbush do when they went elsewhere?
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  #56  
Old 01-09-2020, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ELDER06 View Post
Itís already the norm if youíre a 4/5* QB. I feel confident that Pyne or Buchner will end up in the transfer portal in a few yrs. The question is will coaches still take high * QB recruits in back to back yrs knowing one of them leaving is likely, or will they bet on one high * QB and take a 2/3* as a gritty starter who just has such intangibles that he can't be beaten out by more talented players and racks up an impressive win/loss record, further cementing his stature as the starting QB, despite many of those wins coming from the help of a top tier defense, even though he flops against every top tier opponent he faces.?
Fixed it for you.
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  #57  
Old 01-09-2020, 05:04 PM
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A decent article on Recruiting QBs
https://irishsportsdaily.com/s/11489...te-quarterback
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  #58  
Old 01-09-2020, 05:28 PM
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Obviously it didnt work because Kelly landed a stud in Buchner. By far his most talented qb he has ever landed
That's why I said "you'd think that would be enough"....stud QBs still commit to ND. Maybe they hope they can be the ones to return us to glory. QB progression stats (or lack thereof) under BK should scare them away, but I guess it doesn't.
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  #59  
Old 01-09-2020, 05:46 PM
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Ian Book 2020 Stats

Passing Efficiency: 149.10 (24th)
Passing TDs: 34 (6th)
Points Responsible/Game: 17.5 (8th)
Completion Percentage: 60.2% (64th)
Yards/Attempt: 7.60 (56th)
Total Offense: 275.4 (25th)

Only two QBs had 3,000 passing yards, 30 TDs, and 500 rushing yards this season - Jalen Hurts and Ian Book.

Listen, to make this clear, I don't think Ian Book is a Heisman-caliber QB or even a truly elite QB, which ND will need to win a National Championship. I have no illusions that Book will bring home a National Title in 2020. However, people acting like he is garbage or he is even just an average QB are clueless. I agree, the win/loss record of a QB can be overplayed because of other factors, but it is still an important stat. Ian Book is a winner - he makes ND a better team by being the starting QB.

To those who say he doesn't play well against elite teams, my response would be - did you watch the Georgia game? ND had zero running game - ZERO. The entire offense depended on Book. And against one of the best defenses in the entire country (Georgia was Top 5 in total defense and scoring defense), he gave ND a chance to win at the end. 29 for 47, 275 yards, 2 TD, 2 INT. That's a pretty good stat line against one of the best defenses in the country, and at least one - if not both - of the INTs was absolutely not his fault. If your rebuttal is the Michigan game, then I would ask you to point out one player who showed up because I know Claypool, Gillman, Okwara, Kareem, Bilal, etc. did not show up either. Michigan was a total coaching failure.

Ian Book is one of the reasons ND won 11 games this year. He gives ND the best chance to win in 2020 and the only chance to make the College Football Playoff. Again, I am not arguing that he is elite like Burrow or Tua or Lawrence. But Book is a great college QB who makes the team better and gives the team an opportunity to win. Who cares if he is not going to be an NFL QB? That has absolutely nothing to do with Notre Dame.

Jurkovec could be a good college QB. I have really have no idea. He was a great recruit, but he had some mechanical issues and apparently he was not a film junkie, which is pretty much required to be a great college QB in today's game. He read the wrong signal in the Bowling Green game - that's how unprepared he was to be the starter at ND. Maybe he will be great wherever he ends up, but to act like he was the second coming is ridiculous. And to act like he should have be the starter over Book is even more ridiculous. Book gives ND the best chance to win. It was true in 2019 and it's even more true in 2020.
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Old 01-09-2020, 06:03 PM
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You are correct that Book isn't garbage, but just throwing out a bunch of stats doesn't make him above average either.

The key stat is Yards per attempt. A lot of Book's passing yards are extensions of the run game. Short throws designed to get 5-7 yards. He isn't a threat downfield.

Yes, when you total his stats at the end the year, they can be eye popping, but you also have to look at the offense that was run to get there.

Like you said, Book is good, not great. ND needs great.

6 QB's had better passer ratings vs Georgia than Book did this year.

Book struggles vs good defenses. Obviously a lot of QB's do, otherwise they wouldn't be good defenses, but at some point, you need your QB to beat the other team.

His rating vs good defenses:

Georgia 116.38
Michigan 99.21
Va Tech 112.88

Also usually struggles vs teams with similar athletes:
USC 106.75
Virginia 123.44

Then he makes hay vs totally inferior teams:
Bowling Green 256.68
New Mexico 271.31
Navy 264.19

He had a similar trend last year, just without the huge games.

ND needs an elite QB to beat elite teams. When the ones with potential keep either transferring, or not panning out, at some point that falls squarely on the coach. No, not every highly recruited QB pans out. But when you are 0 for the decade at ND, that's on Kelly.
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Old 01-09-2020, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim2Dokes View Post
Out of this list only Alex Smith has had a decent NFL career. You are missing the point, these are considered the top coaches, the very top and yet have not produced an elite qb in the nfl yet.. we shall see about Tua. I hate that you make it so easy to defend Kelly, when I donít think he is even close to the level of these coaches.
You are missing my point. I am not talking about coaches who produce elite NFL QBs.

I am talking about a much lower bar. Surely it is not asking a lot from a coach who aspires to be a Top 10 coach to be able to identify and develop multiple QBs who have the minimum amount of talent to just simply make an NFL roster.

Saban and Meyer have shown that they can recruit/develop NFL quality QBs on a regular basis. Not necessarily All-Pros but at least guys that can hang in the league for multiple years even if just on practice squads.

Kelly has done it just once in ten years at ND.

There are probably at least 300 QBs who have been on a NFL roster sometime during the past 10 years. (There were over 100 QBs on rosters in 2019).

Kelly, the QB Whisperer, has manged to only coach just 1 of those 300 QBs during his time at ND.

Does Kelly's track record with QBs over the last 10 years give anyone confidence that he will be able to field a NC winning team?
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Old 01-09-2020, 06:45 PM
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You are missing my point. I am not talking about coaches who produce elite NFL QBs.

I am talking about a much lower bar. Surely it is not asking a lot from a coach who aspires to be a Top 10 coach to be able to identify and develop multiple QBs who have the minimum amount of talent to just simply make an NFL roster.

Saban and Meyer have shown that they can recruit/develop NFL quality QBs on a regular basis. Not necessarily All-Pros but at least guys that can hang in the league for multiple years even if just on practice squads.

Kelly has done it just once in ten years at ND.

There are probably at least 300 QBs who have been on a NFL roster sometime during the past 10 years. (There were over 100 QBs on rosters in 2019).

Kelly, the QB Whisperer, has manged to only coach just 1 of those 300 QBs during his time at ND.

Does Kelly's track record with QBs over the last 10 years give anyone confidence that he will be able to field a NC winning team?
Out of curiosity, are you referring to Kizer when you mention 1?
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Old 01-09-2020, 06:58 PM
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You are correct that Book isn't garbage, but just throwing out a bunch of stats doesn't make him above average either.

The key stat is Yards per attempt. A lot of Book's passing yards are extensions of the run game. Short throws designed to get 5-7 yards. He isn't a threat downfield.

Yes, when you total his stats at the end the year, they can be eye popping, but you also have to look at the offense that was run to get there.

Like you said, Book is good, not great. ND needs great.

6 QB's had better passer ratings vs Georgia than Book did this year.

Book struggles vs good defenses. Obviously a lot of QB's do, otherwise they wouldn't be good defenses, but at some point, you need your QB to beat the other team.

His rating vs good defenses:

Georgia 116.38
Michigan 99.21
Va Tech 112.88

Also usually struggles vs teams with similar athletes:
USC 106.75
Virginia 123.44

Then he makes hay vs totally inferior teams:
Bowling Green 256.68
New Mexico 271.31
Navy 264.19

He had a similar trend last year, just without the huge games.

ND needs an elite QB to beat elite teams. When the ones with potential keep either transferring, or not panning out, at some point that falls squarely on the coach. No, not every highly recruited QB pans out. But when you are 0 for the decade at ND, that's on Kelly.
Definitely fair and all good points. I tried not to cherry pick stats, which is why I included yards/attempt and completion percentage because he is average or below average in those. In yards/attempt, Hurts, Burrow, Tua, Lawrence and Fields were all Top 10. Same with passing efficiency. Again, Book is not at that elite level, but he is good (and I think he has the potential to be great in 2020, but that is certainly debatable).

I would imagine that the trend line looks the same for almost every quarterback in college, except for Burrow this season.

Jalen Hurts - 191.2 passer rating

3 best games: West Virginia (308.5), South Dakota (253.6), Houston (251.3) (Texas Tech and UCLA were also close to 250)

3 worst games: LSU (100.7), TCU (132.3), Texas (155.9)

Justin Fields - 181.4 passer rating

3 best games: Rutgers (253.3), Miami OH (218.7), Michigan (210.3)

3 worst games: Clemson (122.1), Wisconsin - regular season (148.3), Michigan State (155.6)

Now, I agree with your overall point and I am not trying to compare Book to either of those guys, but the trend lines look very similar. Although, to be fair, Book's lows are lower than Hurts and Fields, and Fields destroyed Michigan. But, basically, you beat up on the terrible teams and pad stats like it's NCAA14, and you struggle against the good teams. Hurts and Fields obviously played better against the best defenses they faced than Book did, but the trend line is still the same.

Completely agree with the BK/QB thing. You can't dance around it after 10 seasons. Just like you can't dance around the "ND doesn't win big games." It happens consistently for 10 years, it's just what it is. Hopefully things can change with Book in 2020 and with ND against Wisconsin/Clemson, but I'm not overly optimistic.

My overall point was basically that Book gives ND the best chance of winning, which was true in 2019 and is true in 2020. Just because Jurkovec was a great recruit doesn't mean anything. Half the Top QB recruits transfer - it's just the way college football is now. It just feels like a lot of people were screaming for Jurkovec when Book is the better QB right now.

Last edited by tneun89; 01-09-2020 at 07:00 PM.
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Old 01-09-2020, 07:22 PM
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Definitely fair and all good points. I tried not to cherry pick stats, which is why I included yards/attempt and completion percentage because he is average or below average in those. In yards/attempt, Hurts, Burrow, Tua, Lawrence and Fields were all Top 10. Same with passing efficiency. Again, Book is not at that elite level, but he is good (and I think he has the potential to be great in 2020, but that is certainly debatable).

I would imagine that the trend line looks the same for almost every quarterback in college, except for Burrow this season.

Jalen Hurts - 191.2 passer rating

3 best games: West Virginia (308.5), South Dakota (253.6), Houston (251.3) (Texas Tech and UCLA were also close to 250)

3 worst games: LSU (100.7), TCU (132.3), Texas (155.9)

Justin Fields - 181.4 passer rating

3 best games: Rutgers (253.3), Miami OH (218.7), Michigan (210.3)

3 worst games: Clemson (122.1), Wisconsin - regular season (148.3), Michigan State (155.6)

Now, I agree with your overall point and I am not trying to compare Book to either of those guys, but the trend lines look very similar. Although, to be fair, Book's lows are lower than Hurts and Fields, and Fields destroyed Michigan. But, basically, you beat up on the terrible teams and pad stats like it's NCAA14, and you struggle against the good teams. Hurts and Fields obviously played better against the best defenses they faced than Book did, but the trend line is still the same.

Completely agree with the BK/QB thing. You can't dance around it after 10 seasons. Just like you can't dance around the "ND doesn't win big games." It happens consistently for 10 years, it's just what it is. Hopefully things can change with Book in 2020 and with ND against Wisconsin/Clemson, but I'm not overly optimistic.

My overall point was basically that Book gives ND the best chance of winning, which was true in 2019 and is true in 2020. Just because Jurkovec was a great recruit doesn't mean anything. Half the Top QB recruits transfer - it's just the way college football is now. It just feels like a lot of people were screaming for Jurkovec when Book is the better QB right now.
Good points.

2 things I see are:

As you mention, great QB's play worse vs great teams, but still well enough to win and everyone has a bad game now and then.

My point isn't to knock Book, he's gotten everything out of his ability. The bigger issue is why is he the best option for a top 15 ND team in year 10 of the coaches tenure.
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Old 01-09-2020, 07:26 PM
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Out of curiosity, are you referring to Kizer when you mention 1?
Yes, I believe that Kizer is Kelly's only ND QB who has made an NFL roster (even at the practice squad level)
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Old 01-09-2020, 07:42 PM
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Definitely fair and all good points. I tried not to cherry pick stats, which is why I included yards/attempt and completion percentage because he is average or below average in those. In yards/attempt, Hurts, Burrow, Tua, Lawrence and Fields were all Top 10. Same with passing efficiency. Again, Book is not at that elite level, but he is good (and I think he has the potential to be great in 2020, but that is certainly debatable).

I would imagine that the trend line looks the same for almost every quarterback in college, except for Burrow this season.

Jalen Hurts - 191.2 passer rating

3 best games: West Virginia (308.5), South Dakota (253.6), Houston (251.3) (Texas Tech and UCLA were also close to 250)

3 worst games: LSU (100.7), TCU (132.3), Texas (155.9)

Justin Fields - 181.4 passer rating

3 best games: Rutgers (253.3), Miami OH (218.7), Michigan (210.3)

3 worst games: Clemson (122.1), Wisconsin - regular season (148.3), Michigan State (155.6)

Now, I agree with your overall point and I am not trying to compare Book to either of those guys, but the trend lines look very similar. Although, to be fair, Book's lows are lower than Hurts and Fields, and Fields destroyed Michigan. But, basically, you beat up on the terrible teams and pad stats like it's NCAA14, and you struggle against the good teams. Hurts and Fields obviously played better against the best defenses they faced than Book did, but the trend line is still the same.

Completely agree with the BK/QB thing. You can't dance around it after 10 seasons. Just like you can't dance around the "ND doesn't win big games." It happens consistently for 10 years, it's just what it is. Hopefully things can change with Book in 2020 and with ND against Wisconsin/Clemson, but I'm not overly optimistic.

My overall point was basically that Book gives ND the best chance of winning, which was true in 2019 and is true in 2020. Just because Jurkovec was a great recruit doesn't mean anything. Half the Top QB recruits transfer - it's just the way college football is now. It just feels like a lot of people were screaming for Jurkovec when Book is the better QB right now.


Not that Iím comparing these guys.... But look what Dabo did with Lawrence and Bryant. He knew Lawrence had the higher ceiling and immediately put him in the first game. Then road with him the rest of the year knowing that Lawrence was going to make mistakes. Even though Bryant was clearly still the better qb at that time. I say that meaning, established and able polished. But Dabo was willing to take that chance and get the higher recruit ready. But I know Kelly is not Dabo and Kelly didnít have Daboís luxury to switch since Dabo already won a championship. Where Kelly is still trying to figure out how to recruit top 5 classes. But the point is Kelly is not letting the higher potential guys see the field enough to prepare them for game action.

Also, Iím curious when you said Jurk, wasnít a film junkie what that entails? Arenít their qb meetings where they go over game prep together? Are you saying Jurk didnít go to film rooms alone to watch tape? If heís not understanding the offense or defenses thrown at him, isnít counterintuitive to him to go sit in a room a look a tape he doesnít understand? Where the teaching at? It be like sending a freshman highschool to study hall with Einsteinís theory of relativity on the board and have him try to figure out. Heíll never get it.
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Old 01-09-2020, 07:43 PM
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Yes, I believe that Kizer is Kelly's only ND QB who has made an NFL roster (even at the practice squad level)
Correct, even going back before ND his record isn't great.

Tony Pike was a 6th round pick, played in 1 game for the Panthers, was hurt, waived and never played again.

Zach Collaros signed with the Bucs for a short time but didn't make the team. He has had a pretty decent CFL career.

Dan LeFevour was drafted by the Bears, kicked around the NFL practice squad scene and played in the CFL a bit.

Dayne Crist was signed by the Ravens on two occasions for a total of 4 weeks. (But he really isn't a Kelly guy)

Tom Rees was signed by the Redskins for one week.

Golson played a year in the CFL after not making two different NFL teams after tryouts.

Andrew Hendrix went to Med School after Miami of OH.

Malik Zaire didn't make the Jaguars after a tryout.

Nate Montana participated in the NFL Super Regional Combine, but did not get invited to any team tryouts.

Kizer has played in 18 games, 15 starts and is currently on his 3rd team.

I'm not sure where he got his reputation as a QB developer.
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Old 01-09-2020, 09:11 PM
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Yes, I believe that Kizer is Kelly's only ND QB who has made an NFL roster (even at the practice squad level)
But making an NFL roster is, in no way, indicative of having success in college. That's why no name guys from smaller schools end up getting drafted before QBs of elite schools.

The NFL has a very different set of measurables/qualifications.

If you wanna measure BKs success with QBs, it should be limited to how they perform at ND each year in his system---not how highly they were drafted or how they performed in the NFL. The two are completely unrelated.
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Old 01-09-2020, 09:13 PM
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Not that Iím comparing these guys.... But look what Dabo did with Lawrence and Bryant. He knew Lawrence had the higher ceiling and immediately put him in the first game. Then road with him the rest of the year knowing that Lawrence was going to make mistakes. Even though Bryant was clearly still the better qb at that time. I say that meaning, established and able polished. But Dabo was willing to take that chance and get the higher recruit ready. But I know Kelly is not Dabo and Kelly didnít have Daboís luxury to switch since Dabo already won a championship. Where Kelly is still trying to figure out how to recruit top 5 classes. But the point is Kelly is not letting the higher potential guys see the field enough to prepare them for game action.

Also, Iím curious when you said Jurk, wasnít a film junkie what that entails? Arenít their qb meetings where they go over game prep together? Are you saying Jurk didnít go to film rooms alone to watch tape? If heís not understanding the offense or defenses thrown at him, isnít counterintuitive to him to go sit in a room a look a tape he doesnít understand? Where the teaching at? It be like sending a freshman highschool to study hall with Einsteinís theory of relativity on the board and have him try to figure out. Heíll never get it.
All fair points regarding Dabo switching to Lawrence over Bryant, although Lawrence is truly a once-a-decade type recruit. But I think your overall point still stands. Jurkovec clearly has the physical skills to be successful, it's up to the coaches to help get him ready. But it's also on Jurkovec. I think the fact that he's not ready can be attributed to both the coaches and Jurkovec himself, which is why I brought up the film junkie thing. I brought it up because it's been mentioned on multiple media outlets (not just recently) that Jurk wouldn't study film like Ian Book. They obviously all watch film in the QB meetings and the offensive team meetings, but Book takes extra time to watch it, either by himself or with Tommy Rees. It sounds like Jurk wouldn't do that - maybe that's a product of being frustrated about his role as the backup, but it sounds like the coaches noticed and felt like he wasn't "all in." I get what you're saying about watching it without understanding it, but he could watch it with Tommy Rees to get a better understanding, which is what Book does.

Tim Prister mentioned it in his article this morning:

https://247sports.com/college/notre-...hts-141900595/

I also thought this line from Pete Sampson's article in The Athletic was telling: "But instead of seeing Book as an obstacle to Jurkovec, the proper read is that Jurkovec didn't have the ability to push Book at all. If Jurkovec had returned to Notre Dame this spring, he was more likely to face competition from Brendon Clark and Drew Pyne than to bring competition to Book." That just shows how far away he was - and, again, I don't think it's all on Jurk. The coaches have to develop the players and BK certainly has struggled developing QBs, but the player also has to take ownership and do the little things (like extra film study).

https://theathletic.com/1519640/2020...e-quarterback/
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Old 01-09-2020, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by echo88 View Post
But making an NFL roster is, in no way, indicative of having success in college. That's why no name guys from smaller schools end up getting drafted before QBs of elite schools.

The NFL has a very different set of measurables/qualifications.

If you wanna measure BKs success with QBs, it should be limited to how they perform at ND each year in his system---not how highly they were drafted or how they performed in the NFL. The two are completely unrelated.
Are you making the argument that there is ZERO correlation between college production and NFL success?

I understand a Tony Rice type of argument but for coaches who have a pass-based offense, one would think that you would want QBs who can then play at the next level. Even Meyer with his run-based spread has seen his QBs spend some time in the NFL.

Surely Kelly should have had more than one QB make a NFL team's roster given that there have been over 300 QBs in the NFL over the last 10 years.

Last edited by jbrown_9999; 01-09-2020 at 10:19 PM.
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Old 01-09-2020, 11:03 PM
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Are you making the argument that there is ZERO correlation between college production and NFL success?

I understand a Tony Rice type of argument but for coaches who have a pass-based offense, one would think that you would want QBs who can then play at the next level. Even Meyer with his run-based spread has seen his QBs spend some time in the NFL.

Surely Kelly should have had more than one QB make a NFL team's roster given that there have been over 300 QBs in the NFL over the last 10 years.
Oh I'm not saying there is zero correlation. Im saying that a QBs success in college is not indicative of how well he will fare in the NFL.

In other words, touting how many QBs a college coach has had drafted in the 1st round doesn't say nearly as much about the player as what that QB did while playing in college. College ball is a very different game and recruiting for that level is very different than what NFL scouts are looking for.

Just look at where the NFL QBs who have made a dynasty of their career in the past few decades came from. Was it Bama? Clemson? OSU? That traditional powerhouses of college? Nope.
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Last edited by echo88; 01-09-2020 at 11:06 PM.
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Old 01-09-2020, 11:55 PM
Jim2Dokes Jim2Dokes is offline
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Originally Posted by echo88 View Post
Oh I'm not saying there is zero correlation. Im saying that a QBs success in college is not indicative of how well he will fare in the NFL.

In other words, touting how many QBs a college coach has had drafted in the 1st round doesn't say nearly as much about the player as what that QB did while playing in college. College ball is a very different game and recruiting for that level is very different than what NFL scouts are looking for.

Just look at where the NFL QBs who have made a dynasty of their career in the past few decades came from. Was it Bama? Clemson? OSU? That traditional powerhouses of college? Nope.
Doesn’t matter to this guy, his argument is that since Kelly has 1 QB in the NFl and Saban had John David Booty and John Parker Wilson were drafted, Kelly is a terrible coach. He may be, but he’s not listening to reason that his argument is not valid.

There are two elite QBs in the nfl that won a NC, Watson and Newton. Newton’s coach got fired two years later...

Last edited by Jim2Dokes; 01-10-2020 at 12:04 AM.
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Old 01-10-2020, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by echo88 View Post
Oh I'm not saying there is zero correlation. Im saying that a QBs success in college is not indicative of how well he will fare in the NFL.

In other words, touting how many QBs a college coach has had drafted in the 1st round doesn't say nearly as much about the player as what that QB did while playing in college. College ball is a very different game and recruiting for that level is very different than what NFL scouts are looking for.

Just look at where the NFL QBs who have made a dynasty of their career in the past few decades came from. Was it Bama? Clemson? OSU? That traditional powerhouses of college? Nope.
No, they didn't all come from the powerhouses, but they weren't all no name college QB's either. QBs can develop places other than Alabama, but not many guys go from not being good in college to being great in the NFL. Looking at the list of the best QBs from the last 20 years, I'd say any serious college football fan could tell you where most of them played. Yes, there are few Joe Flaccos adn Rich Gannon's out there, but even guys like Ben Roethlisberger, who went to Miami, OH, were very well known during their college career.

Peyton Manning - Tennessee
Tom Brady - Michigan
Drew Brees - Purdue
Aaron Rodgers - Cal
Donovan McNabb - Syracuse
Steve McNair - Alcorn St.
Philip Rivers - NC State
And so on.
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Old 01-10-2020, 12:44 AM
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No, they didn't all come from the powerhouses, but they weren't all no name college QB's either. QBs can develop places other than Alabama, but not many guys go from not being good in college to being great in the NFL. Looking at the list of the best QBs from the last 20 years, I'd say any serious college football fan could tell you where most of them played. Yes, there are few Joe Flaccos adn Rich Gannon's out there, but even guys like Ben Roethlisberger, who went to Miami, OH, were very well known during their college career.

Peyton Manning - Tennessee
Tom Brady - Michigan
Drew Brees - Purdue
Aaron Rodgers - Cal
Donovan McNabb - Syracuse
Steve McNair - Alcorn St.
Philip Rivers - NC State
And so on.
You could even go a slightly different direction and say that the last 2 number 1 picks went to Oklahoma. Or young guys like Lamar or Mahomes who were coached by actual good/great offensive coaches in Petrino and Kingsbury (something we thought we were getting in Kelly.) Watson went to Clemson obviously, and the guys that are going to be picked high in this class all went to powerhouses: Burrow, Tua, Fromm even guys like Eason at Washington started at Georgia.
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Old 01-10-2020, 12:50 AM
Jim2Dokes Jim2Dokes is offline
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No, they didn't all come from the powerhouses, but they weren't all no name college QB's either. QBs can develop places other than Alabama, but not many guys go from not being good in college to being great in the NFL. Looking at the list of the best QBs from the last 20 years, I'd say any serious college football fan could tell you where most of them played. Yes, there are few Joe Flaccos adn Rich Gannon's out there, but even guys like Ben Roethlisberger, who went to Miami, OH, were very well known during their college career.

Peyton Manning - Tennessee
Tom Brady - Michigan
Drew Brees - Purdue
Aaron Rodgers - Cal
Donovan McNabb - Syracuse
Steve McNair - Alcorn St.
Philip Rivers - NC State
And so on.
I’m confused, you have a mixed bag here, kind of making the point. What are you trying to say? Not being condescending, just curious and confused. Of note, 0 of these QBs have done for their team any better than Book. So makes me more confused, and kind of making our arguement that Echo and I seem to agree on here.
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